An Interview with Dr. James Tabor

Q: Why THE JESUS DYNASTY? What is “the Jesus dynasty?”

A: THE JESUS DYNASTY is an attempt to find the most reliable historical story that most faithfully represents Jesus. This is the desire of millions of Christian believers, as well as countless others who admire Jesus as an historical figure. In my research, a recovery process of sorts, I attempted to build up the story of Jesus to include his ancestors and his successors. The Jesus dynasty is a rehabilitation of John the Baptizer, of Jesus, of James, and of Jesus’ entire family, most of whom have been largely forgotten or marginalized. The recognition of this dynasty not only takes us back to Jesus himself, to the people he loved and to the cause for which he died, but it also offers insights into what is most enduring and provocative about the historical figure of Jesus.

Q: In your introduction, you write, “We never know what new evidence might emerge at any point to allow us to put more pieces of our story together.” As an historian and archaeologist, how did you decide there was enough evidence to write this book now?

A: It is the case that new archaeological evidence keeps turning up, new texts are discovered, and collectively historians come to better understanding of older questions as the field of “Jesus studies” continues to develop. Even in the process of writing this book I found that my ideas were sharpened and new insights emerged. This creative academic process really never ends. And yet there comes a time when one feels ready to do a kind of “summing up” of things. Many of my colleagues, Crossan, Fredriksen, Ehrman, Chilton, and so on, have already done this. After thirty years of research and teaching I felt it had come my turn. I attempted to answer the question most central to the historical Jesus Quest: What do we reliably know about Jesus and how to we know it.

Q: What role does material and historical evidence play in this narrative?

A: One of the unique features of THE JESUS DYNASTY is the way in which archaeological discoveries inform and offer a new interpretive context to the unfolding Jesus story. Too often the material evidence of the past has been ignored in favor of reliance upon texts alone. Whether one is considering the location of the family tomb of Jesus, the exciting excavation of the Suba “John the Baptist” cave, the splendor of the Roman city of Sepphoris, just north of Nazareth, or the location of the crucifixion site, Jesus is put in a time and place that becomes real to us through the material evidence that survives. THE JESUS DYNASTY seeks to combine the best readings of our ancient texts with the additional light shed by the material evidence of archaeology. Geography is also important, as is chronology. All these components need to be carefully viewed together in order for full picture to emerge.

Q: Some may say that your interpretation of the life of Jesus threatens Christianity as it is perceived and practiced in the Western world today. How would you answer that claim?

A: I am a strong advocate of the position that good history never needs to be the enemy of devoted faith. And further, getting closer to what Jesus was all about surely can never be a wrong direction for Christians. It is the case that Christianity has gone through great developments over the centuries that have taken it, in some cases, far afield from its origins and its founder. Most Christians recognize this, whether Catholic or Protestant, Eastern or Western. Dogmas are often slow to change but a critical historical reading of the Bible has largely won the day among major seminaries and all institutions of higher learning, whether secular or theological. Dogmas take time to formulate and on one level they are always interpretations, open to revision. This is even true of the great Creeds of the Church. Even if the wording is not changed, the way things are interpreted and understood can become more sophisticated. I think that a rigidly fundamentalist or literalist approach often closes one to what might be the actual historical meaning of a text.

Q: In your book some of your positions you present as certain and solid, others as possible or likely, and some as speculative and only “perhaps” the case. What can be really proven and how is one to sort all this out? How do you as a scholar decide where to come out on the evidence, especially when it is scanty?

A: It is indeed a complex mix. I tried to begin with a solid outline or framework—what we surely know about Jesus. I summarize that in the Conclusion. Then, as with any historical work one begins to fill in the blanks. There are times when we simply don’t know and will never know. I doubt we will ever answer with historical certainty the question of the human father of Jesus. We will never solve the mystery of the empty tomb. But it is still the task of the historian to survey what we do know, what evidence does survive, and make an attempt to sort through it. One of the things we look for is consistency. If we know one thing, and not another, what appears to be the most likely or reasonable scenario.

Q: How did Jesus of Nazareth see himself?

A: Jesus’ own Messianic self-identity, from an historical point of view, was a complex mix of his own royal pedigree, his reading of biblical prophetic texts, and unfolding events. He came to see that his destiny required him to confront the authorities in Jerusalem, and like John, face opposition and perhaps even death. He found himself in the sacred texts of Scripture, and at the same time he began to act out in his own life and career the series of events that would lead up to his death. His was no “Passover plot,” but a giving of the self for a cause in hope and trust that God would somehow honor his faith and fulfill the promises of the Kingdom.

Q: If that is the case, then why is Jesus’ original Messianic self-identity so different from the way in which many Christians view him, his life, and his work today?

A: Simply stated, “the proclaimer became the proclaimed.” In other words, what Jesus proclaimed, his message, was largely left behind and the person of Jesus became the message. Paul’s gospel message is the formative influence within the entire New Testament and thus forms the foundation of what became world Christianity. In contrast, the original message of John the Baptist, Jesus, and James is a singular one that was gradually forgotten, suppressed, and marginalized in a Gentile Church that largely lost its Jewish roots and origins. That message can be recovered in both the New Testament and other ancient sources through a careful sifting of textual evidence and a commitment to recover the lost treasures of earliest Christianity.

Q: THE JESUS DYNASTY is not only about Jesus of Nazareth, but also his family. Why is it so important to delve further into the life of Mary, his mother?

A: Much has been said about the “historical Jesus” but little attention has been given to Mary his mother. She is shrouded in legend, interpreted by theology, and the focus of personal devotion and piety. But what does history actually tell us? She is a young Jewish woman, Miriam, mother of seven children, widowed, struggling to survive in a troubled time, courageous and full of vision for her gifted children. So much of what Jesus and his brother James became has to trace back to her strong influence.

Q: And James, his brother?

Although recent studies have moved a long way toward rehabilitating the memory and importance of James, the brother of Jesus, his vital role as the “beloved disciple” and pillar of the Church has been largely lost and forgotten. A recovery of the “historical James” is not only possible, but it is perhaps our best method for getting back to the historical Jesus as well. The towering influence of James was based both on his pedigree, as a descendant of the royal line of King David, and also upon his remarkable faith and strong character, exhibited for over thirty years following the death of his brother. That Simon took charge of things after James’s death indicates that this dynastic aspect of early Christianity has been largely lost and forgotten through the legendary dominance of Paul and Peter. An understanding of the Jesus Dynasty is our clearest entrée to really understanding both the faith and the message of Jesus and his earliest followers.

Q: Some scholars like Bruce Chilton have written about Jesus being a disciple of his kinsman, John the Baptizer. Others have ruled out John’s influence on Jesus completely, or even set them in opposition. You, on the other hand, place them on almost equal footing. Why?

A: Jesus himself said that of those “born of a woman” there is none greater than John. The sayings about John preserved in the Q source, our earliest gospel material, put John on the highest level, as even “more than a Prophet.” I think this is our earliest and most reliable tradition. Later this leadership role of John became an embarrassment to Christians wanting to focus solely on Jesus. The relationship between Jesus and his kinsman John is a much neglected aspect of the Jesus story. John has been marginalized and minimized as the precursor of Jesus, introducing him and then quietly moving off the stage. John was in fact the most important influence in Jesus’ life. Their mothers were close. They likely knew one another growing up. Jesus looked to John as mentor and teacher and they joined ranks in their shared vision for Israel’s prophetic future as the two Messiahs, conducting a preaching campaign that rocked the nation back on its heels and drew the attention of the Roman authorities. John’s unexpected death was a vital factor in his own developing understanding of the role he and John were destined to play in the course of history, ultimately leading him to the cross.

Q: Is it really possible to know what Jesus, his contemporaries, and his successors believed? What they thought?

A: As far as entering their minds and hearts and hearing their words firsthand we truly see through a glass darkly. There is a lot we simply can not know. However, from another standpoint our evidence is rather rich. We know an enormous amount about the political, social, and culture Roman world of Jesus. The Dead Sea Scrolls, as contemporary records, have filled in an entire new part of the picture, documenting an apocalyptic, messianic Jewish group in the very time of Jesus, with important parallels to his own. As far as Jesus himself we are left mostly with texts, but by making use of historical critical methods we are able to delve behind the layers and unravel a process that gets us to the beginning. Paul’s letters are invaluable and they are firsthand. The neglected letter of James should also be fully considered. One the whole we have come a long way since Schweitzer, just one hundred years ago.

Q: You distinguish between “the kingdom of God” and “the kingdom of heaven.” Why?

The term “kingdom of heaven” is used by Matthew, whereas Mark and Luke use “kingdom of God.” Both actually mean the same thing. The kingdom of heaven is the rule of heaven, but on earth. The idea goes back to the prophet Daniel—that God will get up a spiritual government for the world, centered in Jerusalem. This vision of the kingdom of God shared by John, Jesus, and their early followers was a spiritual one, but on earth not in heaven. Like the Hebrew Prophets they looked for a time in which peace would come to all nations and righteous and justice would emanate from Jerusalem as the new spiritual capital of a restored Israel, a beacon light to the world. The entire world would turn from idolatry to worship of the one true Creator God. The two Messiahs were to inaugurate that new era and their deaths would serve for the redemption of the world.

Q: So if Jesus and his disciples set out to bring a new era (rather than a new religion), what happened?

A: James, like John and Jesus before him, saw himself as a faithful Jew. None of them believed that their movement was a new religion. Like the Dead Sea Scroll community, as Jews, they did believe that the New Covenant had been inaugurated, but according to Jeremiah it was to be a new covenant with the nation of Israel, not a new religion. It was Paul who transformed Jesus and his message through his ministry to the Gentiles. Breaking with James and the followers of Jesus in Jerusalem, Paul preached a message based on his own revelations; it was Paul’s message that became the foundation of Christian theological orthodoxy. Jesus became a figure whose humanity was obscured in favor of Paul’s visionary experiences of a heavenly Christ. The message that Jesus preached was transformed into the person of Jesus as the message. John became merely a forerunner of Jesus, and James and the others – the Jesus dynasty – were all but forgotten.

Q: And what do you see as the end result of rehabilitating the historical and human Jesus?

Like Albert Schweitzer, I find the Jesus story as I have presented it tremendously moving and inspirational. Whether one takes up the cause of Jesus, and pays the price as he did, remains an open individual choice. But it is hard to ignore the challenge that his life and his death present. If our understanding of Jesus develops out of a common humanity – the hopes and dreams, joys and disappointments, sufferings and tragedies that tie us all together – we will be in a position to better understand Jesus and his early followers and to identify with them on levels that might otherwise be missed. After all, Jesus not only went to the cross, but he invited others to “take up a cross and follow.” In the end, the Jesus story is thoroughly a human story, but one bursting with spiritual potential and direction even at the beginning of the third millennium.